"He Who Does Not Remember History Is Condemned To Repeat It"     -     Georges Santayana
"Power tends to Corrupt, and Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely"     -     Lord Acton
"Liberty Is The Only Thing You Cannot Have Unless You Are Willing To Give It To Others"     -     William Allen White

666man.net -- Main Menu

Dating the "one is" (and other heads) of Revelation 17

Home Page Contact Us Site Map FAQ's Copyright Information

265 Popes In History Prophetic Rules Of Interpretation
666 Number History Daniel
Powerpoint Downloads Revelation
Miscellaneous Items Other Bible Topics

Foreign Language Links
Chinese Español Portuguese Tagalog















Dating the Heads of the Scarlet Beast of Revelation 17


The purpose of this web page is to determine the time frame of the heads of the scarlet beast of Revelation 17.  This will also determine the time frame from which the vision is shown to John and the time frame of the woman.  This is something that has been argued for a very long time by many, usually without resolution.  Dating the heads of the scarlet beast is not a particularly easy thing to do, but there is enough evidence in Revelation 17 and history to accurately determine when the heads exist.

There are several main pointers in Revelation 17 that help determine the time frame for the seven heads.  Here are the main areas investigated on this page:

Evidence Index

  • Revelation 14 through 20 focuses on end time events, not on ancient history.  Revelation 16 and 17 are placed between Revelation 16 and 19, which clarifies that the events of Revelation 16 and 17 are going to be recent history in relation to the end of this world's history.  Click here or scroll down to read the section titled "Placement in Context of Revelation 16 through 19".
  • Revelation 17:1 says the story that follows is about the judgment of the woman.  Knowing who the woman represents and when this power is judged is a clue to when the events of Revelation 17 occur.  Click here or scroll down to read the section titled "Dating the Judgment of the Woman".
  • There is a definite pattern to how prophetic beasts are to be interpreted.  This helps define the time of the heads and the woman's appearance on the heads of the scarlet beast.  Click here or scroll down to read the section titled "The Pattern Says it All".
  • The beast went away in 1798 when the French army went into Rome and took over.  It declared the Papal government at an end.  Click here or scroll down to read the section titled "The Beast is Gone, But, It's Coming BACK!!".
  • Revelation 17 tells us that the beast is in both the abyss and the wilderness at the same time.  This tells us when the heads occur if you understand who the beast is.  Click here or scroll down to read the section titled "Historically, When Is the Abyss?  When Is the Wilderness?".
  • Some people believe that when the angel said that the beast John saw was gone, that the whole beast is gone.  What are the consequences of that and what does it tell us?  Click here or scroll down to read the section titled "But the beast was, so you cannot say only the body is gone!"
  • Revelation is not about the time prior to John, for that was already covered in the prophecies of Daniel and it was not necessary to repeat that.  Instead, Revelation is about the time future to John.  Click here or scroll down to read the section titled "Back to the Future or Back to the Past?"
  • We can be more exact about the dating of the heads, and can pinpoint when the "one is" occurs.  For evidence of this, click here or scroll down to read the section titled "Can You be More Exact About When the 'One Is' Occurs?"

The last section here deals with common objections to the dating method used on this web site.  Here is the most common objection against the dating used on this web site, and the answer to the objection.

  • People sometimes object to the dating method used here.  They claim that the "one is" must be during the time of John, who wrote the book of Revelation.  Are they right?  Click here or scroll down to read the section titled "But, the 'one is' Existed at the Time of John, So How Can The Dating Proposed on This Web Site Be Right?".

Return to top of the Evidence Index

Placement in Context of Revelation 16 through 19

Revelation 16 contains the details of the 7 last plagues God brings upon those who have chosen evil as their way of life.  These plagues occur immediately before Jesus returns for His people.  Revelation 19 contains the story of the second coming of Jesus.  Thus, it is logical that Revelation 17 and 18 must be either sandwiched between these two events, or else closely connected with the events of those times.  Logically, since the plagues are a punishment from God and the angel announces to John at the beginning of Revelation 17 that he is to be shown the judgment of the woman, then the events of Revelation 17 and 18 must be connected to the plagues.  The plagues themselves must be a result of that judgment of God.  Since these are events that must be closely connected as cause and effect, therefore they cannot be far separated in time or there would be no logical connection.

There are those who make the claim that much of the story of Revelation 17 is about ancient history.  They claim this because they say that the heads of the scarlet beast of Revelation 17 represent a series of kingdoms that occur in sequence, often believed to begin with ancient Egypt, then Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and finally Papal Rome.  Some have a different list, but the effect is the same.  It disconnects the judgment of the woman, who represents Papal Rome, from the 7 heads and 10 horns which are the central parts of the story about the judgment of the woman.  Hence, it loses the focus on the end time events that occur in the story.  The judgment of the woman is factually an end-time event as revealed in Daniel 7, yet the heads are claimed to be ancient kingdoms.  That means there is no real logical connection between the judgment and the heads of this beast.  They try to construct one, but it clearly is faulty at best.

Consider that everything from Revelation 14 onward is focused on end time events.  For this reason, you may be sure that the story in Revelation 17 does NOT focus on ancient history, but rather is tied into relatively recent history that occurs just before the second coming of Jesus.  Events dating during the judgment of the woman would have a real connection with the events that follow soon afterwards (the 7 last plagues).  This does not put a date to the heads of the scarlet beast, but it does tell you that ancient history is not part of the story.

In summary, placement of Revelation 17 and 18 between Revelation 16 and 19 tells you that the story in Revelation 17 and 18 must be near end time events and not ancient history.

Return to top of the Evidence Index

Dating the Judgment of the Woman

Revelation 17:1 says "And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will show unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:".  This tells you immediately that the story that is to follow is about the judgment and the time of judgment of the woman.  It is NOT about ancient history nor is it about some other story.

There are several questions that should immediately arise in the reader's mind when they read this verse, which are:

  • Who is the woman?  What power does she represent?
  • What constitutes judgment?  What are the steps by which judgment is done?
  • When is the judgment?
  • How is this judgment connected to the heads of the scarlet beast?

Historically, the woman has been considered to be the Catholic Church.  Now, do bear in mind that this is not to be considered an indictment of all members of that church, because God has many of His people in that church who will ultimately be in heaven and later in the earth made new.  But because in it's history it mixed in the religion of Babylon with the worship of the true God, God does not see it as the pure woman of Revelation 12, but rather labels it as Babylon.

The steps by which judgment is done by God is extremely important to understand, but it is not that different than any reasonably fair courtroom in existence today.  One can go back to Daniel 5 to learn about this process.  In that story, the last king of the empire of Babylon, whose name was Belshazzar, put on a great party to which a large number of his government officials were participants.  But the party took a turn for the worse, for amidst all the music and revelry, a hand suddenly appeared and wrote words on a nearby wall that nobody could read.  In his drunken state, this bothered the king unbearably, so he asked the wisest men among his subjects to interpret the words on the wall.  But try as they might, nobody could read that handwriting.  Finally, somebody remembered the prophet Daniel, that he could decipher the undecipherable, so he was called.  He read the words, which pronounced doom upon the king and an end to his kingdom.  You can imagine that you could have heard a pin drop in that party room after Daniel translated the words.

The words and interpretation as recorded in Daniel 5 are the following:

Dan 5:25  And this is the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.
Dan 5:26  This is the interpretation of the thing: MENE; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it.
Dan 5:27  TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.
Dan 5:28  PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.

Judgment, as God does it and as demonstrated above, consists of two phases:

  • The first phase consists of two parts.  First, there is a weighing of evidence.  This is clearly demonstrated in verses 26 and 27.  The second part consists of pronouncement of the reward to be given according to the evidence presented.  This is in evidence in verse 28, for that event had not yet happened but was forecast to occur, which demonstrates it is a sentence based on the available evidence.
  • The second phase consists of actually giving the reward according to the pronouncement of sentence.  This could be said to be execution of the sentence.  History records what happened in Babylon on that fateful night.  Likely before the party was even over, the Medes and Persians, who were outside the gates of Babylon over the Euphrates River, diverted the river and were able to sneak under the gates that normally prevented anyone from going between the two halves of Babylon that straddled the Euphrates River.  The gates into the half of Babylon with a wall which faced the river were left open that night so that the invaders had only to get into the river area between the two halves, and they then had free access to the entire city.  It seems the guards were so confident of the gates over the river that they felt entirely safe leaving the inner gates into the city itself wide open.  They were wrong and it cost the king his life.

This same procedure is usually followed by fair courts most everywhere.  There is a weighing of the evidence and sentencing according to the findings of the weighed evidence.  This is followed by the giving of reward according to the sentence.

Many Christians tend to think of judgment as only the last part of this process (the punishment or reward phase), but factually it consists of both parts.  But because of this tendency, when people read in the Bible about the judgment of God, they tend to think only of the punishment phase.  This type of thinking skews the picture of God presented, because this picture of God tends to make Him out to be someone who loves the punishment phase. 

You can see a similar picture in the story about Abraham and Lot.  Lot was living in the city of Sodom with his family.  Abraham was living elsewhere.  God showed up with a couple of angels at Abraham's home and announces that he is going to go and see for himself whether the report about the wickedness of the city of Sodom was as true as had been reported to him.  Abraham begs God to spare the city if even a few righteous people can be found in that city, something that God agrees to.  But the city is destroyed, and you can be sure that there were not enough good people in that city so that God could keep that agreement with Abraham and spare the city. 

But the important thing is that FIRST God investigated and made a decision.  Only after that was a reward given out.  God always seems to follow this pattern.  You can read about the story of Abraham, Lot, and Sodom in Genesis 18 and 19.

Why does God do this?  Why bother with an investigation?  Consider that God has no need to investigate because He knows everything.  So why does He bother?  The author believes that the answer lies in God's sense of fairness and wanting His created beings to know that He has been entirely fair in His dealings with them.  This is not just for appearances sake, but rather to be certain that His created beings do not follow Him because they are afraid of Him.  He wants them to know that He never does anything without first carefully considering the facts of the situation.  Of course, He also has the future to consider and take into account for making decisions, something that we cannot do.  But, He apparently wants to be sure we understand that He does all that He can before making decisions about our future.

The next question that should arise is about when is this judgment that the angel announced to John?  The answer is found in the identity of the woman and in Daniel 7.  The woman has been identified as the Catholic Church.  The Catholic Church is headed by the Papacy, which joined with the nations of Europe during the dark ages to destroy anyone who did not believe the same as the Catholic Church and anyone who dared to question it's authority.  Those it opposed were often burned alive at the stake or any other methods that could be devised against them.  The legal power to do this that God recognized as significant existed for 1260 years, as predicted in Daniel 7:25. 

Daniel 7 presents the Papacy through a symbol, a horn on top of the 4th beast (what is often called the dreadful beast and represented Pagan Rome) that Daniel was shown.  Note that the author likes to call this horn the "talking horn" because it had the ability to talk and see, but it's being able to talk seems to be the one characteristic most noticed by Daniel.  It is explained three times in Daniel 7 that the following sequence of events were to occur:

  • The dominion of the Papacy would be brought to an end
  • There would be a judgment which would pronounce sentence in favor of the saints of God and against the Papacy
  • The saints of God would take the kingdom, which would last forever

From history it is known that the dominion of the Papacy, which was the power to punish whatever it considered heresy and for the pope to be head bishop, came to an end in 1798 when the French army marched into Rome, took over, and wrote a decree declaring the power of the pope at an end.  From this, we can know that the judgment must occur after that time.  If you want a more accurate date, then see Daniel 8:14, which will more accurately give the starting date for the judgment to begin.

What does all this mean?  Well, the woman in Revelation 17 represents the Catholic Church, which includes the Papacy.  Thus, when the angel told John that he was to be shown the judgment of the woman, the angel was referring to the judgment spoken of by the prophet Daniel in Daniel 7.  From this, we may know that the events of Revelation 17 must be about the JUDGMENT TIME of the woman, for no courtroom judgment scene is presented there.  But the results of that courtroom judgment is presented in Revelation 17:16-17, and Revelation 18 goes into greater details of the punishment of the woman (Babylon).  So, you know there had to have been a courtroom scene in which the woman was investigated and sentence/reward rendered.  Since it is clear that God does not execute punishment or reward upon anyone without first doing an investigation, we may know that Revelation 17 must be when the judgment scene of investigation is going on, even though the story there is about the 7 heads, the 10 horns, the return of the beast, and THEN the final punishment of the woman.

The story of Revelation 17 is about the time of investigation of the woman.  It gives the events that are going on during this time.  Therefore, one should clearly understand from this that the heads CANNOT involve ancient history.  Ancient Egypt has absolutely nothing to do with the judgment of the woman.  The woman was not even around when ancient Egypt was at the height of it's power.  Only the time after 1798 has anything to do with the judgment of the woman.

Now, since the "one is" head is part of the story of Revelation 17 and is the time frame from which the angel is speaking from, one can know that it must exist AFTER 1798 because that is the earliest the judgment time or the time of the end can be said to begin.  This is the most logical explanation which can be given for it.

The woman sits on all 7 heads of the beast.  But according to the story, she is to be judged during this time.  So, all 7 heads must exist during the time she is judged.  Since the story is NOT focused on the entire existence of the woman, the heads are not about the entire existence of the woman either, but rather focus only upon the judgment time of the woman.  Thus the heads exist only during the judgment time of the woman and no other time is possible.

Return to top of the Evidence Index

The Pattern Says it All

Verse 3 says the following:

So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

This verse speaks of a scarlet colored beast having 7 heads and 10 horns.  Now this looks very much like the beasts in Revelation 12 and 13 which also have the same number of heads and horns.  But even more significant is that these beasts resemble the beasts of Daniel 7.  Daniel 7 did not have any beasts with multiple heads AND multiple horns, but did have one beast with multiple heads and another beast with multiple horns. 

In Daniel 7, if you study it and history closely, you will see the following pattern emerge.  The leopard beast of Daniel 7 had 4 heads.  Historically, it was the third of a series of four kingdoms that swept through the area and came to power as the dominant empire of the area and time.  This kingdom was that of Alexander the Great.  What is most interesting is that after he died in Babylon, his generals at first tried to have Alexander's unborn son rule in his place through a regent and also included as co-ruler, Alexander's half brother.  But this system did not work.  Eventually they gave up and began to claim territories, which they governed, for themselves.  They fought some battles over this, and eventually it was settled among four of them.  These four remaining divisions of the empire existed for some time and then one of them was swallowed by one of the others.  After that there were only three left, which were eventually conquered one by one by the Roman Empire.

But one can clearly see from history that the body of that leopard represented the empire of Alexander the Great and the four heads represented the four divisions of the empire of Alexander the Great which came along later.  Thus the body comes first, then the heads.

The Roman beast came next, and it had 10 horns on top.  Another horn came up among them which had eyes and a mouth like a man and talked.  But what is important is that when Rome fell, the Western Roman Empire was divided among ten tribes, with some smaller areas given over to a few others.  But there were ten main tribes that divided it up, which eventually became the nations of Europe of today.  Now, what is interesting is that on this beast that represented this power in the vision given to Daniel, God used horns instead of heads.  He could have used heads, but did not.  Why?  The author believes he was trying to show us that horns can serve the same function as heads.  He also was trying to establish an order or pattern to how the prophecies should be interpreted because horns grow out of heads.

If you think about this for a minute, you can see the pattern that God is setting up.  He uses body parts to tell us about the sequence of events within a kingdom.  The Greek kingdom was divided up 4 ways after Alexander died, so there are 4 heads to show that these four kingdoms coexisted.  The Roman Empire was divided mainly 10 ways.  But consider, horns grow out of heads, and heads are attached to the body, so if the body represents the initial stage of a kingdom, then the heads ought to represent the next stage of a kingdom, with the horns representing the final stage of a kingdom.  If you move from tail to head direction in examining an animal, you will first see the body, then the head, and then the horns.  This is the natural sequence.  Does this make sense to you?  It should.  The author has named this idea the Miller Principle, after a man who in the 1830s taught a great deal about the prophecies of Daniel around the New England states in the northeastern United States. 

But the central idea here is that the body comes first, then the heads, and finally the horns.  Now, what does this tell us in Revelation 17?  The woman is sitting on the heads and we know that she is part of the main thrust of the story told here.  As mentioned before, the main part of the story is about her judgment, which we know began after 1798.  The fact that she sits on all 7 heads tells us that  the 7 heads must occur at the same time as she does.  Therefore, since the story is about the judgment of the woman, which began no earlier than 1798, then the heads must have begun their time in 1798.  That means the body came before 1798, the heads begin in 1798, and the 10 horns will begin their time after the 7 heads are done.

Because the angel says that the "one is" is during the time of the heads, we can now know that this occurs sometime after 1798.

So, in summary, the pattern present in Daniel 7 tells us how to understand the pattern in Revelation 17.  It plainly tells us that the body represents the first phase of this power, the heads the second phase, and finally the horns represent the last phase.  Each of these is connected to, but distinct and separate time periods from the others.  Since the presence of the woman is 1798 or after, this tells us the heads must begin in 1798 for she sits on all 7 heads.  Therefore, the "one is" occurs after 1798.

Return to top of the Evidence Index

The Beast is Gone, But, It's Coming BACK!!!

In Revelation 17:8, the angel says the following about the beast:

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Now, remember that the angel later says he is speaking from the time frame of the "one is", so when he says that the beast John saw "is not" he clearly meant that it was gone because it is past history.  Now, note that he then begins to speak of the heads and finally the horns.  He says that one of the heads "is".  This tells you that the angel was NOT speaking of the whole beast being gone, for if that were true, then none of the the heads could be a "one is", for they would all be past history then.  Does this make sense?  So, given the pattern present in Daniel 7, you can know that when he said "the beast that thou sawest was, and is not", he clearly had to have been speaking of the body of that beast, not the heads or the horns.  Otherwise the Bible would NOT be consistent with itself.  There are other examples of this type of word usage in the Bible prophecies.  In Daniel 7, it tell us about the talking horn and how at the end of time the body of the beast would be given over to the flames and burned up.  But by then, the body of that beast was already past history, and it was the time of the talking horn.  So the word beast substitutes for the talking horn.

The identity of the beast is clear enough to know that it is Papal.  If you wish to read evidence for this, click here.  Since it is Papal, one can know from history that the French army removed the power of the papacy over the people of God and also removed the power of the papacy over the bishops, though certainly not all of them were removed from his power for he certainly had Catholic bishops that he continued to have authority over.  This event occurred in 1798. 

If the body of the beast represented the time when the Papacy had power over all other bishops (a power created under the decree of Justinian in 533 AD and implemented in 538 AD, 1260 years before 1798) and over the saints of God (see Daniel 7:25), then when that power was removed, that caused the beast's body to go away into the abyss, which is a time of restraint or is a prison (see Revelation 20:1-3, 7).  Then the time of the heads began and will continue until they are done, at which time the time for the horns will begin.  And, when the horns come, shortly after that, the body of the beast will return (see Revelation 17:12-13), which means the power it represented, will again return to bring terror upon the people of God.  It will again have the kind of power it had during the 1260 years.

But what this all tells us is that the time of the heads began in 1798 when the French army took over Rome and brought an end to the Papal government.  The "one is" occurred after that event.  Hence, the "one is" must be dated to after 1798.  Is this clear enough?  The perspective here is what happened in history that should clarify things for you in relation to the body parts of the scarlet beast.

Return to top of the Evidence Index

Historically, When Is the Abyss?  When Is the Wilderness?

This subject was touched on in the "beast is coming back" section above, but here the author will expand this subject a little in order to better explain how it helps date the "one is". 

Note that the beast is shown with the woman in the wilderness when John sees it.  Now, the woman and the beast are shown together in the wilderness, and then the angel says that the beast will ascend out of the abyss.  The angel never says, nor is John shown, the beast going into the abyss nor is it ever shown going into the wilderness.  The logical conclusion is that the beast is in the abyss.  But it also says it is in the wilderness.  Clearly, this means that the wilderness and the abyss in Revelation 17 are symbols of the same thing (think about it - if the beast is in the wilderness and is going to come out of the abyss, where must it be?  It must be both in the wilderness and the abyss at the same time).  You can go to Revelation 20:1-3, and 7 to find out that the abyss is a symbol of a prison, or a restraint.  Now, you know that the wilderness is also a symbol of a prison or restraint.

Now the author is aware that many will immediately pull out their Greek-English dictionaries and look up these words and say the author is dead wrong.  But look at the context and you will know that it must be that if the beast is already in the abyss and will ascend out of it, and it is shown in the wilderness, then the wilderness must be a symbol of the abyss, which in turn is a symbol of a prison.  It is the symbolism that counts here, not the Greek definitions.  This is generally true of symbolism in Revelation.  So, don't look to the Greek-English dictionary to understand the wilderness and abyss.  That will only increase your ignorance.  Let the Bible define the symbolism for itself.  Then you will gain true understanding of this topic.

Allow the author a moment of fun here.  Since many insist on getting the definitions from the Greek-English dictionaries for the wilderness and abyss in Revelation, words which clearly are symbolic, then the author has the right to ask why not do that for, say, the candlesticks in Revelation 1 that Jesus is standing among?  Why take His word for it that these candlesticks stand for the seven churches?  Go back to the Greek definitions of a candlestick and let that define the symbolic value of these objects. 

Do you get the point?  These are symbolic objects or words.  Candlesticks are obviously just that and Jesus says they are symbols of the seven churches.  Thus, you don't go back to the Greek (or English, for that matter) definition of the symbol, but rather instead allow the Bible to define the meaning of the symbol wherever that is possible.  History may have to help with this process also, but it is important to check scripture for symbolic meanings.  If you refuse to do that, but insist on using the Greek definitions, then you will entirely miss the significance of these words.

For a more full explanation of the wilderness as a symbol of the abyss, click here.

What is important to do now is to understand the relationship between the meaning of the abyss as a symbol to the beast itself.  Consider that the beast is the church-state combination of the dark ages, with the Papacy in control.  The abyss is a symbol of a prison or restraint.  Consider now, then, this question.  Historically, when has the Papacy been in restraint since it gained power in 538 AD against the people of God?

There is only one answer to this question.  The time of restraint for the Papacy began in 1798 when the French army marched into and took over Rome, and then put an end to the Papal government powers.  Ever since then, it has been in relative restraint compared to the kind of power it wielded before. 

Thus it is that knowing the identity of the beast itself and the symbolic meaning of the abyss enables the reader to know that the time of the heads is 1798 onward.  Since the "one is" is among those heads, this dates the "one is" to within the time frame of 1798 onward.

Return to top of the Evidence Index

But the beast was, so you cannot say only the body is gone!

Some individuals have written and complained that the when the angel told John that the beast he had seen "was", that meant the whole beast went away right then.  One individual who wrote with this objection claimed that this indicates that there is no body-heads-horns pattern to the beast, and that as a result, we are wrong to divide the beast up in such a pattern and claim there is a prophetic interpretation to this pattern.  Let us examine this and see if there is validity to this claim.

If that is true, then the heads and horns also "were", which means that there is no future for the heads and horns after the body has gone into history.  They too have then gone into the dustbin of history right along with the body of the beast if the whole beast "was" as the angel told John.  What are the facts of this?  The following observations are instructive:

  • John first is told that the beast he had just seen "was".  This would indicate that from some standpoint future to the beast itself, it "was", meaning it by that time (from the reference point of the angel, not John's time necessarily) was relegated to the dustbin of history.  This would at first appear to mean the whole beast went into history, but further observation shows otherwise.
  • Next, the angel begins to discuss the heads.  He says that five have been, one is, and one more is yet to come (Revelation 17:10).  Now, this tells us right away that the angel is speaking from the perspective of the "one is" head, and the beast must be already in the past relative to that reference frame.  However, right away this creates a problem.  If the whole beast went into history, then the heads cannot also be in the future and the angel cannot be speaking from a future time frame.  That would be impossible.
  • Next, after the discussion of the heads, the angel begins to discuss the 10 horns.  Here is what he says:  "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."   Rev 17:12  So, here we have it that from the standpoint of the time from which the angel is speaking, he says the 10 horns are yet future.  That must be the case because it says that the 10 horns receive power with the beast, or logically one would say at the same time as the beast receives power.  The beast is explained to be the 8th king in verse 11, which says: "And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."Rev 17:11  Logically, the 8th must follow the 7th, so this means the 10 horns absolutely must follow the 7 heads.  There is no other logical conclusion that can be reached about that and be sensible about it.

Thus, it is that the angel must be speaking from a time frame after the beast that John saw "was".  This logically requires that the term "beast" must have meant the body of that beast, for otherwise the whole story would be illogical.

In addition, this must require that all the heads occur after the body is gone into history.  This is so because otherwise the angel should have informed us that "the beast and five of the heads on the beast 'were'".  This would only be logical so that the angel could inform us that the "was" time of the body of that beast be the same "was" time of the 5 heads that are said to "have been".  Since he does NOT do this, it is a very reasonable conclusion that he meant to convey to us that the "was" time of the body of that beast is NOT the same as the "have been" time of the five heads.  This is only logical.  Moreover, he never says that the beast and five of the heads ever were concurrent in any way.

There is one other point about the five heads that is important.  In the book of Daniel, chapter 7, the pattern is that heads occur after the body.  There is nothing to say in Revelation 17 to indicate that this pattern has changed.  The same author (God) is behind both books, so why change the rules on us without notifying us of this clearly?  The author does not believe he would do that because God gives evidence of being very consistent and logical.

From this evidence, we can conclude that when the angel said that "the beast that you saw was" is not evidence that the beast, with it's heads and horns, has disappeared into history.  The evidence is entirely consistent that the body of that beast is what is meant by the term "beast" in that statement, and that the heads and horns are NOT included.  Conversely, this argues that history as represented by this beast must progress from the body to the 7 heads and finally to the 10 horns.

But those who object to this viewpoint are right in one sense.  The whole beast did go into the abyss, which means the power the whole beast and woman represent, was placed into restaint.  The Catholic Church and the Papacy are the one constant that exists throughout all 3 phases of that beast, so it is this power that was placed into restraint.  The state simply was removed from association with the Church in 1798.  What this means from a practical standpoint is that the beast's body went into restraint, but the powers of the beast that remained after were also restrained so that they would not choose to act in place of the beast.  The body of the beast as such was in the dustbin of history after 1798 for that time was in the past, yet will return someday.  Hopefully this makes sense to the reader.

Return to Evidence Index 

Back to the Future or Back to the Past?

The prophecies of Daniel gave a good outline of the empires that have occurred in Middle Eastern and European history from his time forward.  But what is interesting is that in Daniel 2, 7, and 8, the events end with the Papal power.  God evidently believed it necessary to give more details of this, and some other topics of relevance, to the Christians after the time of John.  So, John was given the vision recorded in Revelation.

The book of Revelation begins (Rev 1:1) by announcing three important things: (1) the book is a Revelation of Jesus, (2) it is about the future (by implication, not the past), and (3) it was written to show Christians what is yet to come, which probably means it was given to help them be prepared for their own future, or lack of it perhaps, in this world.

Clearly, this generally implies that it is not a book about the past.  Many mistake that when it comes to the heads of the scarlet beast in Revelation 17.  These people believe that the heads of the scarlet beast are ancient kingdoms.  But, since the book itself announces that it is about the future, does this strongly suggest that the 7 heads are not about the past, but rather about the time that was yet to come after John?  According to the interpretation given by many people, most of the 7 heads had already gone by the time of John.

Some argue that this book indeed is about the past, for it says so.  They cite Revelation 1:19, which tells John to write about the past, present, and future.  The author would like the reader to consider that this "past" referred to in Revelation 1:19 is his recent past, for he had already been shown a number of things - none of them ancient history.  Thus, he was not to write about things that Daniel had already covered in Daniel 7, 8, and 11, but rather about the things yet to come after John's own time.

So it is that any tme frame mentioned by any beast after Reelation 12 has no connection to the ancient kingdoms that are mentioned by many for identifying the beast.

Return to Evidence Index 


Can You be More Exact About When the "One Is" Occurs?

This is a very logical question.  Since the heads can be dated to 1798 and afterwards, is there a way to know exactly when the "one is" occurs?  The answer to this question is that it is possible to know.  Here is how.

Read verse 10 of Revelation 17.  Here is what it says:

And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Because the beast is Papal, then the heads must be Papal just like the body (see the Similarity Principle).  As demonstrated above, the heads must occur after 1798.  So, what are they?

If you examine Papal history, you will find that there are 7 Papal names that occur after 1798.  There have been 15 different popes since 1798 (as of the writing of this in January of 2004), but only 7 different names have been used by these 15 different popes.  Click here to see a complete list of the popes.  If you examine the history of these 7 different names, you will discover that these 7 names exactly fulfill the prophecy given in Revelation 17:10.  From the perspective of Pope Paul VI, who was pope from 1963 to 1978, you will discover that five papal names had been before him, he (Pope Paul VI) was (which means he is the "one is" the angel spoke of in Revelation 17:10), and there was one more yet to come who would remain only a little while (Pope John Paul).  Click here for a chart which shows the seven papal lines and how they are related together with the prophecy in Revelation 17:10.

The Pope John Paul series is by far the shortest line of the seven papal names.  Click here for evidence of that, which is presented near the bottom of the page.

From these two charts, you can see that the prophecy is exactly fulfilled.  You can also see exactly when the "one is" occurred, which helps you understand the time frame from which the angel was speaking.

Hopefully this helps you properly date the vision of Revelation 17.  This dating is quite important if one is to properly understand the prophecy.

Return to top of the Evidence Index

But, the "one is" Existed at the Time of John, So How Can The Dating Proposed on This Web Site Be Right?

This is a common objection to the dating demonstrated above.  But it is due to an erroneous understanding of the prophecy and the identity of the beast itself.

There can be little doubt that the beast is Papal.  Many of those (but not all) who object to the dating done on this web site believe that the scarlet beast is the dragon in another form.  But this is erroneous.  Here is why.  The scarlet beast, IF he is the dragon, is in the abyss.  When does the Bible say that the dragon in the abyss?  According to Revelation 20, it is during the thousand years time when the people of God will be in heaven with Jesus.  Satan will be locked down to this earth in its destroyed condition for the millennium, unable to leave and unable to molest, tempt, or annoy anyone.  Further, those who do not serve God according to His will are in the grave during that time.  That MUST INCLUDE the woman, who represents Babylon. 

But according to the vision of John, during the time of the abyss, she is very much alive and DRUNK!  If the scarlet beast is the dragon and we know he is in the abyss during the time shown (for the vision makes it clear that the wilderness and the abyss time are the same and the beast is clearly in it during the vision), then how is it possible for the woman to be alive and very much drunk?  Do you get the point?  If the scarlet beast is the dragon, it is impossible for the woman to be alive and on the heads, drunk as she is, because she is DEAD during the millennium!  The woman's identity is quite well established.  The scarlet beast clearly cannot be the dragon, and since it's identity is not as well established, it must be the symbol whose meaning absolutely must change.  Thus, the only logical conclusion is that the scarlet beast cannot possibly be the dragon.

This reduces the number of options down by one for the identity of the scarlet beast.  There are other options but the best fit is with the Papacy.

Since the ideas many have that the beast is the dragon is the foundation for the heads being a series of ancient sequential kingdoms, this weakens their argument by making clear that the beast cannot be the dragon.  Therefore, the heads identity is also called into question.

Another reason the "one is" cannot have been at the time of John is because Revelation 17:10 says the following:

And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Now, many read this, and recognize correctly that the last two heads are clearly sequential.  Nobody would argue that point.  It is very clear.

But then the mistake is made.  They cannot decipher whether the first five heads are sequential or concurrent, so decide that since the last two heads are sequential, the remaining heads must be sequential also.  Unfortunately, this is false.  Here are reasons why:

  • In Daniel 7, the leopard beast's heads were all concurrent.  Daniel sets the pattern, so this should be followed for all of the heads for the prophetic beasts in Revelation 12, 13, and 17, unless indications are clearly to the contrary.
  • In Daniel 7, the dreadful beast's horns (the 4th beast) were also all concurrent.
  • In Daniel 8, the goat's 4 horns were concurrent, which have the same identity as the leopard beast's heads.
  • Revelation 17 shows that the body-heads-horns pattern is used in that chapter, so it should be followed just as it is in Daniel 7 and 8.
  • Revelation 17 also shows that there is a 3 phase existence to the beast, in which the "was", the "is not", and finally the "yet will be" phases are present.  These correspond to the body-heads-horns pattern present in Daniel and Revelation 17.
  • The woman sits on all 7 heads at once.  This means, whenever the time period is that she represents, the heads are all there with her at the same time.  This precludes any sequence of 7 heads or kingdoms and makes it clear that they must occur within the same short time frame because the woman's time is during her judgment, which came after 1798.  The ancient kingdoms proposed by many reach way back before the woman even existed, which is not logical.
  • There is another pattern present in Daniel 7 and 8 in which God sets up an unspoken pattern, then announces a change.  It is up to you to go back into history to figure out the original pattern which He says nothing about, and then figure out what the new pattern is.  This occurred for example, when God said that the 4th beast would be diverse from those before it.  From history you can learn that the previous kingdoms had kings ruling over them, but the 4th beast (Pagan Rome) would be different because it would have some 6 or 7 different forms of government over it.  In Revelation 17:10, God announces something different when he tells you that the last 2 heads will be sequential.  This is a strong hint that the pattern for the previous heads must be that they exist together, for the new pattern stands in contrast to the old pattern, which is unspoken just like is done in Daniel.
  • The entire setting of Revelation 17 and 18 is set between the 7 last plagues and the second coming, which tells the reader that these events are relatively recent history, not ancient history.  Since the story there is about the 7 heads and the 10 horns and the woman, then the time periods these represent must occur during this time frame.

For all of these reasons, the heads of the scarlet beast must be concurrent, except for the last two heads.  This means there can be no long sequence of kingdoms beginning with ancient Egypt, then Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, then Rome as the "one is" (according to them), and finally Papal Rome.  This is an impossible scenario.  Consequently, it is not possible for the "one is" to be Pagan Rome during the time of John.  It must refer to someone much more recent in time.

Hopefully, this helps the reader better understand this common objection and why it is incorrect.

Return to top of the Evidence Index